Chapter 4: Psychological Safety
Beyond Self Care
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Book Club Notes & Take-aways
Expectations of students versus adults
Connected people have a sense of belonging
Make space for feedback
The fallibility of leaders
How does authenticity show up?
How does the system influence how leaders learn?
Embrace the Messenger
Guests
Dawne Tomlinson is recently retired from the Langley School District as the Director of Instruction. Her roles in education have spanned elementary through post-secondary and have included teacher, vice principal, principal , Associate Dean, and Director of Education.
Sarah Scahill is a registered nurse and health and wellness manager with Medicine Hat Public School Division in Medicine Hat Alberta where she provides guidance and support on employee wellness programming, disability management services, and collaborates with both internal and external stakeholders. Sarah comes from a healthcare background and is not an educator. She brings a different perspective with knowledge and experience in health education, business, and law and is presently completing her Master's of Health Studies with a dual focus on health research and leadership. Sarah has also recently completed her certification with the Canadian Mental Health Association as a psychological health and safety professional.
“Psychological safety is a shared belief held by members of a team that the team is safe for interpersonal risk-taking... and ... a belief that one will not be punished or humiliated for speaking up with ideas, questions, concerns, or mistakes.”
The following conversation was sparked by one simple question: Where did you highlight or put sticky notes?
Expectations of students versus adults
Sarah Scahill: I think there's a few themes that kind of stuck out for me throughout: our expectations for our students and then how we treat our staff. Why are they different, or are they different? When I looked at the chapter there was a section that talked about a culture of feedback, growth, and learning. Educators value this so much for students in the classroom but it is sometimes missing in the workplace. Why are we not supporting our staff by questioning policy or practices? Why might staff feel uncomfortable and where does that disconnect occur? Is it right when they are hired or is it something that they get in their practicum? They know as a student that you're encouraged to make mistakes, ask questions, gain clarity but as a staff member it does not always feel safe to do so.
Gail Markin: I think we're doing such good work with our students: social emotional feelings, conversations, teaching them critical thinking, communication skills. I think we're doing amazing work and I also wonder how we translate that into our workplace which is a more of a business model. Not only are we graduating all these wonderful students that we've just taught all these beautiful skills to, they're now becoming our employees. But there are also employees who came out of a different model and didn't learn the skills that we need in the workplace.
Connected people have a sense of belonging
Dawne Tomlinson: The very first thing that stood out for me when I started this chapter was the whole sense of belonging. That connection between promoting a sense of belonging and having a connected team creates that sense of psychological safety. You have people who are using their energy for work rather than dwelling on the conflicts or the lack of feeling safe within the work environment. Connected people are open, feel they belong and are open to sharing and receiving ideas. I have seen that over and over again. When you have a team working together really well that feels safe, they discuss people's ideas, can receive them, can feed off them and you get amazing results. When you have a team where that's not the case - someone feels unsafe and doesn't feel like they are open to sharing their ideas - it stops the conversation and growth of ideas. It is exciting to work in a team who does feel safe and can do that work.
The other piece that ties in is that idea of someone's perception is their reality. If you carry on ignoring that someone feels unsafe or de-validating them in your own head by saying I don't know why they feel that way - that's not the way to treat it because their perception is their reality. It doesn't matter whether it's real or not, what matters is they feel that way and it needs to be addressed in some way.
To jump on what we were talking about in terms of educators being so amazing at creating safe learning environments for their students - I don't know why that doesn't translate into the adult world? Is it because we're making assumptions that they're adults they should know how? Or that we're just so busy doing things that we don't feel like we have the time to take to build a safe environment and to address any issues that are happening along the way?
Gail Markin: I wonder that often leaders don't know when people aren't safe. It's not that they wouldn't want to pay attention or try and make it better if they knew - but they often don't know! It goes back to belonging and the biological necessity to create safety for ourselves. One of the big things about psychological safety is that people won't speak up even when there are big issues or problems because there is a natural human tendency to be careful. You don't want to rock the boat or you don't want to be the person who's always difficult. We have this sense that conflict and asking difficult questions and making people uncomfortable are not so good right. We don't want to be that person! We want to be positive people which is great too, but sometimes it's at the detriment of the work and of the relationships.
Sarah Scahill: I would agree Gail, it reminds me of some research I've read through Behavioural Science about human nature and tendency, which I call “Hit the Easy Button.” We don't like the feelings of being uncomfortable, so naturally our brain is always looking for the easy, quick fix which isn't always the most productive way. It's usually avoidance: avoid the problem, avoid the conversation, I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to do it… but then it festers and usually ends up in a blowout. Part of it is linked to social emotional learning and skills even in adulthood. I know we do a great job with this with students, but I can't pinpoint any courses or SEL work that I would have done in college that prepared me for some of these things I'm going to have to deal with in the workplace. But it's very interesting because I feel like what we default to is that natural human tendency to just avoid it and it'll go away. But it doesn't go away!
From a leadership perspective sometimes I feel like leaders are busy. Yes, they may not recognize when someone is unwell, but part of it is also that they don't want to open Pandora's Box and ask for feedback. They feel like it's just going to be people coming with complaints. There's no mindset or openness to have those discussions and try to move forward in a productive manner. I actually did feel this reading your book. In one paragraph you talked about embracing the messenger and being that brave messenger coming forward. I made myself stop and think about if I had an idea or some feedback from my executive team, how do I feel about it? I genuinely feel excited and I recognize I'm in a psychologically safe workplace, I'm fortunate. But I can empathize and put myself in the shoes of those who might feel their stomach start turning or feeling unwell or uneasy and it makes it difficult to have that conversation.
Gail Markin: I purposely put that in the story of John. He was a vice principal who was having some problems. His team was struggling with some things the Principal was doing. The book asks people to stop for a moment and think about how it would feel for them if they had to do what John felt he needed to do, which is to go to his assistant superintendent and say, “ this is a problem I need some help with this.” If you're in a psychological safe environment you would feel good about doing that because you would know that that's the best thing for everybody - to have those hard conversations even when they're hard. If you were in a place where you knew that that was dangerous, I could almost hear people thinking, “Don't do it John! Don't do it! That's career suicide! Vice principals don't say anything about their Principals no matter what!” If you're having that reaction, you should stop and think. If you were to ask people in district leadership what someone should do in that situation - the answer would be to do exactly what John did. But if you're worried about safety of your staff or it still remains unsolved, you're supposed to go and have a conversation yet is that safe to do so?
Dawne Tomlinson: Gail you actually touched on something in there that really resonated with me - the idea of being able to tell your mentor. If employers can set it up so that people like John has someone who is safe to go. I know in our district, we had set up a mentorship program and I know that Vice Principals and Principals each have a mentor that they can go to, that is safe, that they can ask the questions to. A mentor that is not in their school, someone outside of the space that they're working directly in. John could have also gone to his mentor first to get some feedback from them safely before proceeding.
Make space for feedback
Dawne Tomlinson: Another really important piece in your book is just creating space for people to give feedback. I think that had John's principal does some different things about providing space for feedback for staff that he might have received that message in a different way and I know that you wrote about it in your book one of the things that I did every year was provide the three questions that you had in your book:
What am I doing that I need to keep doing?
What am I doing that I need to stop doing?
What am I not doing but I need to start doing?
These very open-ended questions that I asked my staff every year as a Principal, as an Associate Dean, as a Director of Instruction. I'm going to tell you that sometimes it was difficult to receive that feedback! It was not only important to ask the question and to receive the feedback but then it was important piece to then respond back to the staff. In June I asked those questions, I would reflect over the summer, and then at the first staff meeting back I said, “This is what I heard from you. Here are the themes (I'm not picking out individual statements) that came through and these are the things that I'm going to work on this year. You need to call me on it if I'm not doing those things.” Trying to promote trust and giving an opportunity to share where they're at takes time but it means a whole lot to people and to your relationships with your staff and for their work environment.
The fallibility of leaders
Sarah Scahill: I love those questions. Those are good because you're opening up and being receptive. People still may feel slightly uncomfortable in sharing, but they're certainly more comfortable than had you not asked. Then how you utilized that feedback to show that you've actually listened and are intentional with how you move forward. That idea led me to the book’s message of fallibility and knowing that even as a leader it's okay to be wrong. We are not perfect, everybody makes mistakes. Showing empathy and creating a culture where that is okay. When the executive team in the district office are almost untouchable or unapproachable, they put them on this pedestal which creates hierarchy. We're all humans, we're all learning together as we go, nobody's perfect. I really like that section on the fallible leader and creating that space to demonstrate that it's okay to be wrong and learn from each other.
Dawne Tomlinson: I can't stress that enough in terms of leaders showing vulnerability and showing that they can make mistakes. We didn't go to principal school to become principals! We were just thrown into it and everybody assumes you must know what you're doing. When I first started I did not know what I was doing and I wasn't afraid to tell people that. I said, “I need your help to make this school successful.” I was in an inner city school that needed a lot of work and tender loving care but I couldn't do that by myself, we needed the whole group. So we really rallied together. I said, “I don't know what to do to turn this school around but as long as we all want that, let's work together and you tell me what needs to happen.”
I was just reminded of another story at post-secondary. I was thrown in as the program director of a recording arts program with an all male faculty who were all big stars. I remember my first meeting with all of these famous men with their arms and legs crossed. Right at the very beginning I said, “My expertise is teaching, yours is recording arts. I will help you with the teaching if you help me with the recording arts. Let's work together and make this the best program in the world.” They uncrossed and looked at me thinking - she's acknowledged that she doesn't know everything but she's bringing something to the table. We're all learners and we all make mistakes and it’s important to model that continuously so that people do feel safe to make mistakes.
Gail Markin: Wonderful example for collective responsibility because that really impacts people's wellness. I love the study that I mentioned in the book that happened during Covid-19. Every one of those principals called their staff, was caring about them, wanted to make sure that they were doing well. This was back when everyone was working at home and doing online teaching for the very first time. All of the Principals cared about their staff and called to check in and see how they were doing. The difference was that the ones that said, “okay, this is what's happening and here's what's going on, this is what we have to work with with a sense of collective responsibility did well. They got through it easier. People reported feeling better. The other ones who asked, “how can I help you? What do you need?” and put the leader in a role of responsibility didn’t do as well. It's too much on the leaders but it also doesn't work for the people that they're leading because they want to have something valuable to contribute.
How does authenticity show up?
Sarah Scahill: The other thing that stuck out for me in that study was that even though all the Principals called their staff and all showed empathy and caring, the teachers who were likely in a psychologically unsafe or less safe environment had a first instinct of: why is he or she calling me? What did I do? It was more of a what am I doing wrong response. They thought they were checking up on or questioned trust. That's what leads to an unhealthy environment. I love the word authenticity because if they don't feel you're authentic, the respect and the trust just isn't there.
Dawne Tomlinson: I think you could do a whole book on being authentic and yet that would almost feel wrong because authentic should just come naturally. You can't teach authenticity. It was it was the Principals who were already authentic that when they called the teachers knew that it was with good intentions.
Gail Markin: I'm going to push back a little bit Dawne. I know I'm safe to do so! I wonder whether if all of those Principals were actually authentic. If we imagine all of them were authentically making those calls but that some of them were caught in the idea that, “I need to fix it. That that's my job.” I think sometimes we (the system) teach leaders about how they impact on the school. Research shows us they have a big impact… but they don't have all the impact. I think they can still be authentic but they've been trained into the system that has set us up a way of seeing that my job is to take care of the people I lead.
Dawne Tomlinson: When trying to explain to my daughter what I did as a principal when she was seven, I couldn't explain what I did. I walk the halls and talk to kids! She came to school one day and at the end of the day she said to me, “I figured out what it is that you do! You fix everyone's problems!” That was a real eye-opener for me because I don't think that's what I should be doing all the time! I think we go into leadership thinking that our job is to fix everyone's problems, but you're going to burn yourself out if that's how you look at it and and if that's what your goal is all the time
Sarah Scahill: I think that's the stigma though because as soon as you're put in a leadership position your staff assume you know everything and you feel like, “I should know the everything, I should have the answers,” and so there's that internal conflict. I think that's where it's important to acknowledge as you've said before I don't know everything I'm here to learn let's figure it out. There is definitely that perception and either people expect you to know or you feel like they expect you to know everything but the ones who pretend that they do know everything are usually not perceived as well.
How does the system influence how leaders learn?
Gail Markin: The amount of things a leader has to do in these positions in school districts is so huge. You can't possibly be the expert on all things - that's not the job of the leader. I do think the system and not just in education but the traditional workplace system, has taught us some of those things. Those messages are being continued. Part of these kinds of conversations is to pause and think about whether these are the things that we want to keep telling people.
Another thing in the book is about when I was asking a Principal what he thought of a new policy or directive that was coming coming down. He said it doesn't matter what he thought, he was an agent of the board. I said, “yeah okay, but what do you think?” He didn't want to say! He said it doesn't matter what her thought. Is it really the case that we're not allowed an opinion? It really stopped the conversation for me to understand him more but it also stopped me from having input or ideas. There are so many things we just continue to do and we continue to teach our new leaders. Without asking do we want to keep doing them?
Sarah Scahill: That hit home with me - when he told you it didn't matter what he thought because he was an agent of the board and then your thought was - if he doesn't feel safe to question leadership and I'm below him, why should I feel safe? The hierarchy certainly plays a part when we're thinking. My leader is the one who should be going forward and questioning and having these conversations but his actions demonstrated that it's not safe! He didn't feel he could question things and that leads to an unhealthy work culture as well. As leaders you need to demonstrate the behaviours you're expecting in your staff. It goes back to authenticity - if you want someone to speak up you should also be able to speak up yourself.
Dawne Tomlinson: Many times it is a result of not feeling safe speaking up and not wanting to stir the waters that probably need to be stirred! Or they have already been stirred and you don't want to go there because you don’t know how it’s going to be received.
Sarah Scahill: Sometimes it's not that I feel unsafe talking about something but it's that I don't think I'll have any impact because it's a government-directed initiative. But I think there's ways to still implement those things in a psychologically safe way and not just throwing it down the pipe saying, “here's what we’ve got to do and don't question me.”
Embrace the Messenger
Dawne Tomlinson: When someone asks you something that you don't know how to answer the book gives some very practical responses under your section called Embrace the Messenger. I love the responses. It connects back to the communication about making up your own stories. When leaders are not sharing information, people are making up stories. As busy as leaders are, it's so important to be able to share information in a timely manner and in a clear manner allowing opportunities for people to ask questions. Without that they start to make up their own stories about things and those stories can get away on you.
Sarah Scahill: I had another line highlighted that kind of ties that in too Dawne. It's that people prefer to hear a decision they don't like over a decision or a message they don't trust.
Gail Markin: That was a hard part to write because in writing that part around trust I don't think people are holding information to keep power. I don't think when they're delivering information that they're not trustworthy people. I think what's happening is that they have a message that is difficult and they're trying to be kind. We do a lot of trying to be kind and talking about things that are hard for people to hear. Sometimes we hold info a long time because we want to wait until we have all our ducks in a line or we wait until we won't get as much pushback. What happens is people will make announcements of things that you know isn't actually the full truth. I think that's the part that people have trouble with, not because people are trying to be evil or hide things. We just want to be kind and we want to make it easier for people to hear but people see through that and if they don't believe the message and if it's not clear and timely, it undermines that trust relationship.This is way worse than if you just would have had the hard conversation to begin with and way worse than if you would have brought people in a lot earlier.
Sarah Scahill: I agree I don't think people do it with malicious intent or to hold the power. I think they don't want to make people feel uncomfortable, don't want to add more to their plate, don't want to be seen as someone who's just giving them more things to do when they're already overloaded. So they try to wait for the best time - maybe tomorrow, maybe next week. But the longer you put it off, the harder it is and when the message does come out it can be misinterpreted.
Gail Markin: I think it also has to do with that traditional model of workplaces. We keep a lot of things secret and within a small group of people and there's absolutely no reason. It's just what we're used to. We're just so used to certain roles or people get to know some things and other people don't. Sometimes that doesn't make any sense!
Sarah Scahill: I would agree that sometimes it feels very siloed. You may not see the purpose of sharing the information with another department but yet had you shared that information there could be overlapping, collaboration, and wisdom. I do feel like our division does a good job of collaboration and communication with departments but still certainly at times in any organization you're going to feel like it's siloed. Certain information only stays in HR or certain information only stays with Principals. There is certain information that needs to but I think if we can share as much as we are allowed and have those collaborative discussions, we'd be surprised how much others can bring to the table for things we might not have thought of.
Gail Markin: I also think the time factor jumps in. People think it takes more time to do some of these things. In terms of psychological safety, people worry about the time with talking about all these things and collaborating with everybody. But it actually takes less time because in a psychologically safe environment we avoid a lot of beating around the bush, we avoid lots of mistakes that we have to then go back and fix. We come up with the ideas early so when we make our mistakes they're less dangerous to and actually the time factor is less .
Sarah Scahill: We talked about relationships and that sense of belonging, how can we as a either as a division or as a individual start to foster a psychologically safe workplace and where do we start?
Gail Markin: I spend a lot of time thinking about that! It's nicely between the belonging and connection chapter and the systems chapter because I think we have to hit it at both ends - things to practice and increase belonging and connection as well as looking at our systems that either promote or get in the way.
