Chapter 5: Change is Possible
Beyond Self Care
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Book Club Notes & Take-aways
How to make structural changes to the system
When we find workarounds to the rules
Getting below the iceberg’s surface
The ways that the system is dynamic
When we don't take care of the big people it trickles down to the little people
Toss out the heroic leader concept
Guests
Carolynn Ryan is a senior vice president people and Chief Human Resources officers at one of the largest public sector employers in the province of BC. She leads the team of HR professionals who support employees through the entire employment life cycle from recruitment to retirement. Carolynn has worked in HR for her entire career specializing for many years in labor relations and collective bargaining. Carolyn was born in Prince George but she's called Vancouver her home for many years.
Claire Guy is an experienced systems leader with 37 years in public education from K-12. Claire is passionate about equity, diversity, and inclusion in public education. Her current role is as the executive director of the BC Schools Superintendents Association but she has been in many roles in education: teacher, vice principal, principal, director of instruction, and assistant superintendent. At the moment she's on the board of directors for the Canadian Association of School System Administrators and the president of the EdCad network.
Joanne Schroeder is a settler on the traditional territories of the Comox people on Vancouver Island, Canada. She's a mother of four and grandmother of three. Joanne is the director of Strategy and Innovation at the Human Early Learning Partnership which we call HELP - an interdisciplinary research network based at the University of British Columbia. As part of this role she is leading the newly formed Network for Compassionate Systems Leadership in BC Education.
“The system is not out there, the system is internal.”
The following conversation was sparked by one simple question: Where did you highlight or put sticky notes?
How to make structural changes to the system
Joanne Schroeder: I think the thing that really stuck out for me is the strategies that you included. I think what is intimidating for people is that the system seems so big and people can feel a little bit powerless in terms of how they interact with the system or how they feel they can influence it. I just loved that in the chapter - and even just in the title “change is possible” - it made me want to read more and go a bit deeper about the ideas. I highlighted the title of the chapter and then the way that you were able to break it down and give very specific examples. There was one example that you gave about the woman who was wanting to lead the district initiative and then there were some structural barriers that made it difficult for her to do so. It was such a simple example and a small example in many ways, but it really landed with me. These systemic barriers can be small but yet so frustrating. I appreciated how you were able to break that down, unpack it, and give some ideas about how you might make some structural changes.
We talk a lot in compassionate systems about this notion that we are the system. The system is not out there, the system is internal. I think the examples that you gave throughout the chapter were really empowering. It wasn't like the system was too big and scary to take any action.
Gail Markin: I'll just give a little bit of context in that example because it was a person who was setting up a team. After trying and spending a bit of time, they realized that weren't allowed to do it because their role was not such that they were given access to setting a team up. Yet that was what they were asked to do. What I liked about that as an example is that I know that feeling of wanting to just do the quick fix because that seems quicker. When you start to break it down you realize that this was going to keep happening over and over again if we kept doing that quick fix. We often don't think about the impact of how it feels to the person. It’s easier to just say, “okay here let me help you and take care of it for you,” and that ignores all of that stuff.
Joanne Schroeder: It also reminds me of the interconnectedness between all those things. That systemic frustration obviously impacted on that individual's well-being.
Carolynn Ryan: The other example that I really spent some time on because of my background in labor relations and collective bargaining was the example of hiring in the school system and the whole notion of what the Collective Agreement barriers can be. What I liked was the optimism in the book around change is possible. I agree that sometimes those things can seem insurmountable but it really is about being curious, about asking questions, about being willing to engage in the dialogue with the right stakeholders to just start a conversation. Recognizing that it's going to take some time to get there but willing to dive in and not just opt for the quick fix. The one example that you raised was the simpler one but I thought that was a tough one!
When we find workarounds to the rules
Gail Markin: Re-reading it today I was laughing at myself because if you work in education, in one of the districts that that's the way it works - hiring means the person at the top of the seniority list and there's no flexibility around that. But then find the workarounds that people do in order to get around this rule that they don't think is the right rule. My point is that if you work in education in a district that has that rule, you all know it and you all know that people are working around it. Everybody talks about it but no one really talks about it! If everybody's working around it and everybody else knows they're working around - it what are we doing? Why can't we just stop working around things all the time!
Carolynn Ryan: I think one of the things, because I've always worked in Human Resources, it's about trying to bring people to the table to have those tough conversations and not avoid them.
Joanne Schroeder: It also makes me think when we try to understand the systems within which we work, sometimes it's so those informal rules or those workarounds that are as embedded as the rules. They are structures of the system in the same way as the ones that are formally written down in policies and procedures. So sometimes we don't account for that when we dive in to think about changing them.
Getting below the iceberg’s surface
Claire Guy: Everything that Carolynn and Joanne and you, Gail, have said already resonates with me. I had lots of stickies and highlights throughout not just that chapter but throughout the whole book. A couple of comments that I just wanted to add was going back to what you and Joanne had talked about - the quick fix situation. Beware of the quick fix, that one really stuck out for me because it goes to that whole Iceberg model - looking at what is on the surface, of what you see isn't always really what the underlying issues are. Sometimes that quick fix is the top of the iceberg but the bottom is really what we need to attend to. As systems leaders and as systems leadership, I think that's the place where, if we really want to effect change, we need to be below the surface. Looking at those underlying potential barriers and things that are getting in the way. You know you talked about the subversive leadership and I think that's the kind of thing that you were referring to. Carolynn I just have to say I have so much admiration for people like yourself who are in Human Resources because it is a tough job and people who do it well are just so valuable to the system. It’s hard to have those hard conversations and do it in a way that people feel good to be involved in.
The ways that the system is dynamic
Claire Guy: From the whole book, and the reason why I felt so strongly that everybody should read it, is there were two things that stuck out in that chapter. You talked about the fact that systems are dynamic. As leaders we need to be really aware of the context within which we work because you can be swimming in one ocean and then you move to a different ocean that's not the same fish, and it's not the same ocean! What works in one context isn't necessarily going to work in another context. We have to be responsive and adaptive in our leadership.
In the very first page of that chapter, you talk about the ethic of care and the need for collective responsibility. I think this is really the key for the whole book. Well-being just needs to be embedded. It needs to be the way we do things around here - it's just the way we do business. That systems change piece only comes if we all truly believe that. Joanne reminded me at the beginning of this session today of the fact that she's a settler in the traditional lands of the indigenous peoples in the Comox Valley and I always introduce myself as a settler on the traditional territories that I find myself on and I forgot to do it today. That has become embedded in me and so I thank you, Joanne, for reminding me about that. That's how I feel about the well-being piece - it just has to be a part of who we are as a system leader. That really stuck out for me in the book and when you say change is possible - it is! We think about that now with truth and reconciliation.
Gail Markin: Claire when you're talking about that embedded part and that systems are always evolving and changing, I think it's a good reminder to realize that it doesn't mean “here's the new thing” or “here's the new change.” That's not what we're talking about here, it's about doing the things that we're already doing whether it's a new thing or an old thing or somewhere in between and doing that intentional part that says, “oh actually, we've always done it like this but I wonder about this.” Those kind of changes so we're evolving our practice as opposed to “here's the new thing” kind of change. I think time time pressures are one of the big things that freaks people out about systems change. But I think back to that whole quick fix thing - those quick fixes look like they're time savers but they're really completely not because we keep having to do the same thing over and over again. We don't get to that root of the problem and getting to the root sometimes takes a little bit of time. But often it's just a different way in.
Claire Guy: You talk about time savers but I think we, as leaders, look for game changers. You know a time saver isn't necessarily a game changer. People are so busy and they hear, “oh one more thing” or “what can we add to the agenda,” “oh not another one on the agenda!” But it's not one more thing on the agenda - it is the agenda! Shifting the way we approach some of this stuff so that this just becomes the way we do things and the way we think about things. I think that's actually a relief for people - it's not one more thing, it's just how I approach things! Gail, you've done such a nice job of giving us concrete examples in here which I think are really helpful.
Carolynn Ryan: I really picked up a lot on the leadership as well. I know everyone at every level can affect change a lot of the work that I do is about enabling everyone to do their best work but to support leaders to bring out the best in people. I really like where you just talked about noticing - like just taking a minute to notice what's going on. Even that is simple but really powerful. In your forward you talked about how it's hard sometimes to take that breath and to notice. That just really resonated with me and I would just really encourage everyone to take a look at what's going on, to see all those things that are happening.
The other thing is that listening piece. There was a lot of talk about listening through engagement surveys and those kinds of things, to show not only that you're curious but that people's experience matters. It matters enough for you to then have that discipline to take action based on what you're hearing. That really resonated for me as well.
Joanne Schroeder: Just thinking about that whole sense of noticing and reminding that we notice with our eyes and our ears, but we also have the capacity to notice with our gut. I really thought that came through in that chapter. When we do the compassionate systems work, which is similarly in those three kinds of interconnected domains, people get the building present awareness for the self-leadership and the interpersonal leadership. But they think about systems thinking as somehow more in our head, more of a cognitive thing. But in fact, just following on what you're saying Carolyn, there's a great saying - being a systems thinker is always seeing the world in motion. This is what you're all referring to, we can feel the world in motion too, we can feel when we're on the right track. We embody so much of those things.
Claire Guy: Another piece that I thought was really helpful in this chapter (and you even made it a subsection) is making the actions visible. Noticing things is really important but also it's a big mistake to assume things. You talk to being intentional and we need to be intentional, but we need to be explicit and we need to be talking about the change we're trying to affect. By bringing people along and being very explicit about it and communicating because sometimes not everybody has the same version of the crystal ball. Talking about it and being open and transparent just as the way we do business. It's not something to add on, it's just a way of being but it does impact systems change a ton.
When we don't take care of the big people it trickles down to the little people
Carolynn Ryan: You guys are working with children and young people - you're really shaping the future and you're impacting so many lives. I think this is such good work because teachers and educators and people working in the school system need to have that feeling of well-being . We're all doing important work but this work is really important! I was really inspired by that.
Gail Markin: I love that! It's so true and I think because we have an impact on students, coming to work in a space of well-being has that impact. The other thing that I find so fascinating and I just love about education is that we're doing a darn good job of teaching the kids in our classrooms these beautiful skills: paying attention to how they feel; paying attention to how things are going for other people; perspective taking; conflict resolution. We're doing such beautiful work in the classrooms and it's not a huge leap to move that into the adult world. It just isn't the structure of workplaces. I feel like we're training the kids in a beautiful way to do this and they're graduating and becoming employees. The workplaces need to be there in that same sense so we're coming at it from both ends. We need to make it better for the adults in the building right now because they're impacting the kids. We're teaching the kids all these beautiful things and they're becoming the adults in our buildings expecting to be able to work that way.
Claire Guy: One thing that I'm so happy about this book and why I feel so strongly that every educator needs to read it is because we talk about taking care of the little people before we take care of the big people. I believe that deeply that our focus is on our children and their well-being and we would always place them first as a teacher, a principal, and all the way through the school system. But I think we know now that if we don't take care of the big people that trickles down to the little people. We're not helping them if we're not well ourselves. I think there is finally a realization in this sector that our wellness as adults has a positive effect on the wellness of the learners - all learners - little kid learners and big people learners. I think people are now okay to say, “yeah we need to put our supports and resources into both not just the children.” I think we're finally okay with saying that and this book does such a great job of explaining why and the importance of that why.
Toss out the heroic leader concept
Carolynn Ryan: That's so powerful because even earlier in the book you talked about leaders being vulnerable and I've seen that when a leader is willing to step up and say what isn't going well and what they are struggling with, it has such a huge impact on everyone within the workplace. It's kind of that same idea as Claire described of big people and little people even though in the workplace it's a little different . It's so important for people to be willing to be vulnerable and to focus on the well-being of how we're all working together.
Gail Markin: It also goes back to collective responsibility. We have to toss out the heroic leader concept as well - it isn't just my responsibility to take care of it - we have to realize that everyone wants to contribute and be valued.
Joanne Schroeder: I think indicative of a shift and a change in how we see and value leaders. That notion of that charismatic heroic leader who through the force of their will have everyone following along is becoming dated. There's a recognition that all of us are vulnerable, no matter what our responsibilities are. In fact by modeling vulnerability and modeling wellness seeking it's great for kids! I don't think we have to feel like we're hiding that from kids. It's a real shift and a real acceptance of vulnerability in all of us that is really helpful to the notion of leadership.
Carolynn Ryan: I can't wait to listen to the podcast of the other chapters because I have so many notes in so many margins throughout the book!
Gail Markin: You know, one of the things that I'm hoping that this will do is for people to start book clubs and then they all call me and tell me how it goes or give me their feedback. I just want to start conversations! Thank you so very much for doing this. It was a great conversation and I hope it starts lots of other conversations. I appreciate you being here and sharing your wisdom with everyone!
